Elise Loehnen — New York Times bestselling author of On Our Best Behavior and host of Pulling the Thread — explores shadow work and the transformational guidebook Choosing Wholeness Over Goodness (co-written with coach Courtney Smith). Drawing from Jungian psychology, she unpacks how fear is our most animating impulse (yet most people aren't aware it's running decisions), why the pursuit of being "good" keeps us stuck instead of whole, and how unconscious stories structure our entire lives. The guidebook provides a seven-step process for identifying stories we've built our personalities around — like "I'm the only one who can do things right, so I should do it all" — examining their payoff, costs, and fears, then choosing to make them conscious or Marie Kondo them. Elise explores the shift from ego to soul and knowledge to wisdom, why everything is a story (not a fact), and Robert Johnson's wisdom that "the first half of life is devoted to the cultural process; the second half is devoted to restoring wholeness."
WHAT YOU'LL LEARN
What shadow work really means — integrating rejected parts instead of suppressing them; "the gold is in the shadow"
Why fear is the universal driver — first thing in the shadow bag, especially for men; unconsciously driving most decisions and cultural polarization
How unconscious stories structure your life — identifying the narratives you've built your personality around (seven-step process from the guidebook)
The cost of being "good" vs becoming whole — Jung's statement "I'd rather be whole than good"; pursuing goodness keeps us stuck
How to identify and release limiting stories — seven-step process includes payoff, cost, fear keeping story alive; can make conscious or Marie Kondo it
Why everything is a story, not a fact — culture, country, religion are all stories; recognizing this creates flexibility and choice
The shift from ego to soul, knowledge to wisdom — midlife as spiritual pivot; first half builds structure, second half finds meaning
LEARN MORE
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July 17, 2025
Elise Loehnen
Choosing Wholeness: Embracing the Shadow and Rewriting Your Story
“Our instinct is to eradicate and destroy what we don’t like—in ourselves and others. That’s the beginning of shadow.”
TIMESTAMPS
00:06:42 – Next book teaser: Cultural shadow, binaries, and the tension of opposites — looking at shadow of cultural femininity and masculinity
00:12:24 – What is the shadow: Everything we reject, deny, suppress, and put in the "trash bag" — context-dependent, not truly bad
00:15:50 – "The gold is in the shadow": Carl Jung quote — all growth comes through shadow, hard things, suffering; energy spent keeping bag closed
00:21:23 – The more light, the longer the shadow: Shadow material gets more intense as you grow; leaders must attend to shadow rigorously
00:25:03 – Fear as most animating impulse: First thing in shadow bag, especially for men; 99% of people don't acknowledge it's running decisions
00:28:41 – Perception of harm (Kurt Gray): Not arguing about facts but about stories; who feels harmed and why; fear underneath outrage
00:31:24 – Using anger for good: How to channel anger constructively while acknowledging our own shadow bag
00:37:00 – Ego to soul, knowledge to wisdom: Chip Conley's Modern Elder concept — midlife as pivot from building to meaning-making
00:39:32 – Self vs ego vs soul: Higher self as portal to soul; vertical (spiritual) and horizontal (lived values) integration
00:46:09 – Choosing Wholeness guidebook origin: Women said "I see the matrix, now what?"; Courtney Smith brought seven-step process
00:48:10 – Seven-step story process: Identify stories you've built personality around; payoff, costs, fear keeping story alive; Marie Kondo or make conscious
00:52:52 – Everything is a story: Culture, country, religion — not facts; choosing flexibility over rigid attachment to stories as "reality"
00:56:23 – Coming back to wholeness: Arrive wholly baked, spend first half putting things in bag, second half taking them out (Robert Blyke quote)
SHOW NOTES
In this profoundly insightful episode, Dr. Dan welcomes back New York Times bestselling author and cultural thought leader Elise Loehnen to explore the power and necessity of shadow work. Together, they dive into Jungian psychology, the cost of cultural conditioning, and the stories we unconsciously carry that shape who we believe we must be.
Elise talks to Dr. Dan about the journey that led to her latest project, Choosing Wholeness Over Goodness—a transformational guidebook co-written with coach Courtney Smith. From the drama triangle to internal family systems to working with the “eight sins,” this conversation is packed with tools and reflections to help you move from ego to soul, knowledge to wisdom, and fear to empowerment.
LINKS & RESOURCES
Elise Loehnen
Substack — eliseloehnen.substack.com
Instagram — @eliseloehnen
Podcast — Pulling the Thread
Books — Choosing Wholeness Over Goodness (with Courtney Smith), On Our Best Behavior (now available in paperback), True and False Magic (with Phil Stutz)
GUEST BIO
Elise Loehnen is the New York Times bestselling author of On Our Best Behavior: The Seven Deadly Sins and the Price Women Pay to Be Good and host of the podcast Pulling the Thread, where she interviews cultural luminaries about the big questions of today. Her latest book, Choosing Wholeness Over Goodness (co-written with coach Courtney Smith), is a transformational guidebook for integrating shadow and releasing limiting stories. She is also the co-author of True and False Magic with legendary psychiatrist Phil Stutz, and has co-written 14 books, including five New York Times bestsellers. Previously, Elise was the chief content officer of Goop, where she co-hosted the Goop podcast and The Goop Lab on Netflix, and led the brand's content strategy and programming. She lives in Los Angeles with her husband and two sons.
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